| Author | Post |
|---|
EasilyFound
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 10:05 pm |
|
I live on the second floor of a small, four floor apt building. Lately, I've noticed that the hot water in my kitchen faucet is lower than the cold water. I unhooked my fixture and found white bits of sediment which I have been told are calcum. (The bits can be smushed, and a plumber in the apt for another reason examined them and said they were calcium). The water flow was still restricted even after I had cleaned out those bits. With the fixture off, I notice that the hot water flows less than the cold water, so the problem was not only in the fixture.
I found the same kind of white bits in my shower head, which had noticeably reduced the flow of water through the shower head. After cleaning out the white bits out of the shower head, the water flow returned to normal.
My downstairs neighbor also has noticed a significant reduction of hot water pressure in his kitchen faucet. His apt is configured differently than the upper floors, so I dont know for sure whether our kitches share the same line.
My upstairs neighbors do not report any noticeable reduction of hot water flow in their kitchen faucets. Their apartment are configured exactly like mine, so I assume they share the same pipe.
The plumber who examined the bits said that the hot water tank needs to be replaced. The tank was installed in 1995.
What do I make of all of this?
Thanks.
|
elenano
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 11th, 2004 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 1322 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 11:52 pm |
|
There are two possibilities. One is that the water heater dip tube is disintegrating and bits of it are showing up in the fixtures. That also tends to degrade the amount of hot water a tank delivers. However, it doesn't mean the water heater needs to be replaced, just the dip tube.
The other possibility is that the tank has an aluminum anode and the corrosion byproduct is floating out and into the fixtures.
Does each unit have its own heater, or is there one big one for the whole place? And do you have any idea if the piping is steel or copper. The flow restriction could be a separate issue from the bits of gunk
Randy Schuyler
Last edited on Sun Jan 20th, 2008 11:56 pm by elenano
|
EasilyFound
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 12:20 am |
|
There is one hot water tank for the four units. It is a commercial water tank that is 100 gallons.
The piping looks to be copper. All of the water piping in the basement is copper, so I assme that is what is in the walls too (correct?).
What is a dip tube made of? Is it plastic? The bits I have found are not plastic, at least not what I would expect plastic to look like. They resemble plaster. And as I said, they can be smushed. Is that what the corrosion byproduct would look and feel like?
Also, one time I cleaned out the shower head I saw a small black bit along with the white bits.
I am not a plumber and not familiar with plubming at all. What is the best thing for me to do to diagnose the problem and determine what to do next, fix the problem or replace the water heater? Call a plumber?
|
eleent
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 11th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1567 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 12:52 am |
|
Hello: Dip tubes when they deteriorate, can look just like other sediment except that they are all the same in one dimension. They are also angular. They can be white or off white towards tan or blue depending on the piping. "Smushing" between fingers is exactly what dip tube bits do. The age of your heater is correct for this problem.
I would also have a look to see if there is a recirculating line. This would be there to provide quick hot water, but if it misbehaves, can deliver sediment to the plumbing as well.
Replacing the dip tube and probably the anode will cost far less than putting in a new heater; which should earn you points with the landlord 
Yours, Larry
|
EasilyFound
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 01:18 am |
|
LOL, I'm the landlord. This is a cooperative apt in NYC, so all of us own a piece.
I'm looking now at some of the bits that I put in a plastic bag, and two of the three bits are angular.
How do the bits reduce the water flow? They get into the line and get trapped in some of the lines? After replacing the tube and the anode, do I have to have the plumber do something to the lines that have had reduced water flow?
I guess I'll call a plumber. Thanks so much for your help.
|
elenano
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 11th, 2004 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 1322 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 03:50 am |
|
The plastic bits may not have anything to do with the reduced water flow. Probably don't, in fact. Since you have copper piping -- assuming it IS all copper, and assuming is dangerous in troubleshooting -- it might be a problem with the fixture or some blockage between the fixture and the water heater, or some blockage where the hot water comes out of the water heater.
Is it poor flow just at that fixture, or all fixtures? There is a backflushing trick of Larry's described in Tanklets, for what it's worth.
Also, since commercial-size dip tubes aren't the most common thing floating around, I thought I'd mention that I think I have a one-inch and a couple of 1 1/2-inch ones left over from the days when I serviced commercial water heaters in apartment complexes. If you want one, I'll try to figure out a price.
Randy Schuyler
|
EasilyFound
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 05:05 am |
|
In my apt, the water flow problem exists only in the kitchen. I don't notice it anywhere else. And none of my upstairs neighbors have reported such a problem. My downstairs neighbor, the person on the ground floor, says that the hot water in his kitchen is a little bit more than a trickle, and it has been like that for longer than in my apt.
I'll check out the blackflushing trick.
Last edited on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 05:06 am by EasilyFound
|
EasilyFound
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 07:41 pm |
|
| Hi. I just pulled apart my kitchen fixture and inside found a lot white and black bits. More black than white. The black bits look like charcoal. Does this give you any additional ideas about the problem?
|
eleent
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 11th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1567 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 06:05 am |
|
Hello: The black bits could be either rusr or rubber. Try passing a magnet over them  Even with copper piping, you may have dielectric fittings or some other source of rust. Trouble sometimes throws you more than one problem at once. Don't rule out dip tube for part of the trouble to shoot.
Yours, Larry
|
EasilyFound
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 12:34 pm |
|
I passed a magnet over the black bits, and the magnet did not attract any of the bits. I put one of the black bits in my hand, it feld very hard; it was not smushable, although it did break a part. When I was trying to get the black bits out of the trap in the faucet, the black bits did leave some residue on the trap and my fingers, so maybe they are pieces of hard rubber?
I also opened up the faucet spout of another faucet without a hot water pressure problem, and saw a lot of these black bits and white/bluish bits, which seems to match the description, earlier in this thread, of what bits of disintegrating dip tube would look like.
I will call today for a plumber to come out and diagnose the problem. These bits have shown up in faucets that do not have a hot water flow problem, so maybe the bits are unrelated to the hot water pressure problem described in the OP.
Thanks for your time and advice.
|
elenano
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 11th, 2004 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 1322 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 07:49 pm |
|
Does the water heater have braided stainless steel flex lines, by any chance? Those have been known to have a rubber lining that sometimes breaks down and starts dumping bits of rubber into the water.
Randy Schuyler
|
eleent
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 11th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1567 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 08:32 pm |
|
One more possible source of the black bits could be rubber washers breaking up. Older buildings sometimes had "globe valves", which internally are similar to hose bibbs. They have a large flat washer which can get brittle and break up. Have a look around the cold supply line for a valve that looks similar to a gate valve, but has a bigger brass body.
Yours, Larry
|
EasilyFound
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 10:06 pm |
|
The plumbers came. They drained the tank and the system of hot water to look for a collapsed valve. They removed a valve from the hot water line in the basement that they think fed my apt and my neighbors apt, then turned on the hot water and dirty water burst out of that valve, then became clear. The plumbers concluded that the line was clogged in there somewhere. My hot water pressure increased a bit, but my neighbor's did not, so they believe their might be a clog in an unexposed pipe.
Last edited on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 12:46 am by EasilyFound
|
eleent
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 11th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1567 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 11:43 pm |
|
Hello: There is a backflushing trick mentioned in "Tanklets" which might be helpful to you. Wherever the clog might be doesn't matter. If pressure can be put on the cold side only, it can then be used at the faucet that's flowing poorly and made to backflush the hot line. Usually sediment winds up in the tank, but a little extra plumbing effort along with a hose could put that stuff in a bucket outside.
One must wonder where the debris came from. Maybe nothing to do with your building 
Yours, Larry
|
EasilyFound
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 05:04 pm |
|
| Well, the hot water flow is weakening again. My neighber suggested I check the supply lines (I hope that is the correct plumbing terminology) to my kitchen sink fixture. He suspects that the sediment is collecting there and impeding the water flow. It makes sense to me.
|
eleent
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 11th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1567 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 04:03 am |
|
Hmmm: It might be time to consider putting a strainer on the water supply line. Sounds like the "stuff" is not coming from your plumbing system. With only one slow faucet, check the fixture first and work back throught the system to find the blockage. Generally speaking that is
Yours, Larry
|
EasilyFound
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 12:00 pm |
|
Thanks.
Two questions.
Where do you put the strainer? Somewhere it can be cleaned regularly, if need be? Even with a strainer, wouldn't the line still get clogged?
And why do you think the sediment is not from the water line? Most of the sediment is the whiteish/blueish plastic bits, which is consistent with a deteriorating dip tube.
Last edited on Thu Feb 28th, 2008 12:00 pm by EasilyFound
|
eleent
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 11th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1567 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 04:42 am |
|
Hello: If you install one. I'd put the strainer after the main shutoff valve. Also, I'd add another valve just downstream of the strainer. This way you can clean the strainer without draining down the whole building or even putting much air in the lines. I'd put it in a place that gets no direct sunshine as you don't want it generating bacteria. A fair mention has been made of dark non-ferrous bits, possibly rubber, being in the lines. If that isn't coming from old valves on the property, it must be coming in with the water supply.
The white bits probably are from the dip tube, which needs checking/replacing. You'll have a lot more hot water when that's done. Are there any cold only lines, like toilets that have slowed? That would be proof the entire problem wasn't only in the hot side.
Yours, Larry
|
EasilyFound
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 20th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 04:43 pm |
|
Immediate problem solved. I had a second plumber come out after my kitchen hot water was down to a trickle. They blew out the hot water line by unhooking the line in the fixture from the line from the pipe and running the cold water through the hot water line of the fixture. I guess that is the "backflushing" trick mentioned earlier in this thread, but I did not understand it until now.
It cleared everything out and the hot water runs fine now. It is a matter of time, I suspect, before the hot water line in the fixture gets clogged again. Only this time I will know how to do it myself if need be.
Plumber said water tank is dying and should be replaced. He pooh-poohed the idea of replacing the dip tube. Said it was not worth the cost and to just replace the hot water tank, which is close to 12 years old.
Last edited on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 04:46 pm by EasilyFound
|
elenano
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 11th, 2004 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 1322 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 05:36 pm |
|
Unless the plumber did the external inspection we describe under Know-how, and pulled and examined the sacrificial anode(s), he doesn't know what he is talking about. Literally.
We've found plumbers will commonly recommend replacement when a water heater gets past a certain age, just as a rule of thumb.
I'm not sure you ever did describe the water heater in detail. What gallonage and Btu is it? Who made it? Gas or electric?
You can do the external inspection yourself. Tell us what you find. I am guessing that a water heater that serves four units is going to be somewhat expensive to replace. Best to do a little homework first.
Randy Schuyler
|
Current time is 07:51 am | Page: 1 2   |
|
