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micali
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 10:52 pm |
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I bought a new 40 gallaon hot water heater about 3 years ago from home deopt. about a year ago I had the first T&P valve start leaking. I replaced it and installed a new one and this one started leaking not long after that. I just recently replaced it agian and the new one has started leaking after one night of being installed. The orig valve didn't start leaking until it was about 3 years old. Why now is every new vavle leaking so quick?
The heater is located very close to where the main water line comes into the house. I have very good pressure in the house. I do not have an expansion tank installed. What could be causing these problems. I can shoot a picture of the installation if needed.
I've read about testing the water pressure how do you do that?
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energyexpert
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 12:01 am |
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Water expands not insignificantly when heated. If you don't have an expansion tank and have high water pressure to start with, it is likely pressure is reaching the lift point of the TP valve.
David
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micali
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 01:49 am |
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| can I install a pressure regulator without an expansion tank? I don't have a lot of room and only have acess to the flexible lines going to the tank. The others are in the wall.
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eleent
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 01:52 am |
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Hello: An expansion tank can be installed in any cold line downstream of the reducer. Hopefully there is another place protected from the weather that it can go.
Yours, Larry
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micali
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 01:52 am |
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| I also don't see any type of backflow preventer on the system. Is this buried in the ground? This house was not done to code for the most part so I bet it doesn't have one.
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micali
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 01:54 am |
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Reducer? What is that. Very limited when it comes to plumbing.
I put my hand on the cold line and close to the tank it is quite warm closer to the shut off it is cold. What does that tell you?
The red shut off is for the house. That is were the water comes into the house. See attached photo.
Attachment: shutoff.jpg (Downloaded 49 times) Last edited on Wed Feb 13th, 2008 02:22 am by micali
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micali
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 02:23 am |
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| This is how close the two are together. Attachment: full view.jpg (Downloaded 48 times)
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elenano
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 05:38 am |
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A pressure reducer looks slightly like two bells (this is very crude) with the mouths kissing. That is to say, the one is right side up, the other upside down. I don't see anything like that here. I'm not going to even try to describe a backflow preventer, although maybe I ought to include one in the Lingo section. At least, nothing gets kissed. Don't see that, either.
As to the hot and cold piping, that's convection. Heat will rise out of the tank until the flex line stops rising and makes a turn, which yours does.
But the main issue here is thermal expansion, which we think is making your T&P valves leak. There is a simple test for that. Get a water pressure gauge, put it on the water heater drain valve, or any hose bibb, and then, making sure nobody accidentally uses hot water, make the tank fire. That might be done by turning the thermostat down for awhile, then back up, or by running hot water until you know it's firing, then close the tap. Then watch the valve.
Normal pressure is anything below 80 psi. If it spikes much beyond that, then your T&P is doing its job and you should think about an expansion tank.
Randy Schuyler
Last edited on Wed Feb 13th, 2008 05:40 am by elenano
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micali
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 10:41 pm |
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| Why would I start to have this issue with this tank and not the old one?
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elenano
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Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 06:02 am |
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A good question without a clear answer, but one possibility is that the T&P on the old one was clogged up with mineral buildup and wouldn't have opened under any circumstances. Residential T&Ps are much more prone to failure than commercial ones. Ultimately, though, you ought to get a pressure gauge and test. If you don't find pressure spikes, come back to us and post again. By the way, the pressure gauge is only about ten bucks.
Randy Schuyler
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energyexpert
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Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 09:42 am |
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You have a valid question: Why did the problem appear now? Usually something changed. Maybe nothing changed in your dwelling. But something may have changed on the delivery side. did the supplier raise the pressure for additional customers,etc? Randy's right, get a pressure gauge.
David
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eleent
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Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 11:48 pm |
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Hello: I'll chime in, basically agreeing with the stuck relief valve theory. It is common to find valves that have never been operated on older heaters. If you press rubber against brass pretty hard for ten years, even with no mineral buildup, it sticks shut. This really is common and as has been said, a pressure gauge is what's needed to know what's really happening.
Yours, Larry
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micali
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Posted: Mon Feb 18th, 2008 12:16 pm |
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where can I find a pressure gaugae? It seems to only leak when we use the shower or the washer.
If it's that teh pressure was turned up, can I install a pressure regulator to correct the problem? I don't have room to put in an expansion tank.
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elenano
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Posted: Mon Feb 18th, 2008 05:07 pm |
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If you have thermal expansion, a pressure regulator isn't the answer; the expansion tank is. Remember, as Larry said, the expansion tank does not have to go next to the water heater, where things are tight, but on any cold line downstream of the reducer. You can buy a pressure gauge at a hardware store.
Watts makes something called a Governor 80 that vents into the toilet tank. That might be a solution.
Randy Schuyler
Last edited on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 05:08 pm by elenano
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micali
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Posted: Mon Feb 18th, 2008 10:34 pm |
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| can I buy a commercial T&P valve? I'll look for a tester and get back with you.
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eleent
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 08:09 pm |
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Hello: You can buy a commercial T&P but that probably won't fix the problem. First you need to know what the system pressure is doing under different conditions. Once you know that, you'll know if an expansion tank is needed. If you do add an expansion tank, the normal relief valve will probably no longer need to open.
Plumbing can provide wonderful opportunities to exercise one's troubleshooting skills 
Yours. Larry
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micali
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 10:21 pm |
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OK, I had someone test it and he determined that it is thermal expansion and suggest that a tank be installed. He said the pressure outside is about 60lb. HE told me it would cost 230 dollars to fix it. All he did was hook up one of those cheap water pessure testers on the outside and turned it on.
He told me that he would put a "t" on the cold side of the tank, you can see in the pictures and put the tank on that and then screw put the cold line onto the tank.
Can I do this myself? Where can I buy the parts. It only sounds like it would be half that if I did it myself. Any suggestions would be great.
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elenano
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 11:00 pm |
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I am reluctant to guide people who aren't plumbers in plumbing procedures over the web. Plumbers' charges seem high to a lot of folks until they do it themselves and something goes wrong. Then they find out what plumbers' expertise and tools are really worth. If you think that bid is too high, get a couple more. The fact that you don't know what you need or where to get it does not encourage me.
Larry said a few posts back that the tank can go on any cold line. If you choose to put it near the water heater, though, make sure it's below the top of the tank so that hot water won't flow into it and maybe damage the rubber diaphragm. The tank is precharged to 40 psi, but will need to be charged up to line pressure to work properly. And those are things to tell the plumber, too, if you go that route.
Randy Schuyler
Last edited on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 11:01 pm by elenano
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micali
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 11:24 pm |
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| ok, he told me that he was going to put it on top of the hot water heater. Does this sound correct. I don't have room to put it down low. See pics above.
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elenano
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 03:38 am |
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I did see the pictures. But the point is still that if you place it above the water heater, hot water will flow into it, partly by convection and hot water is bad for the rubber bladder inside the expansion tank. Again, Larry said the tank can go on ANY cold line downstream of the reducer, if there is one. It does not have to be on or close to the water heater.
Randy Schuyler
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