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| New Water Heater advice needed | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Tue Dec 2nd, 2008 04:23 pm |
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1st Post |
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Pilsner73 Member 
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I just moved into a new house and am debating about replacing my water heater with a model with a better first hour recovery and insulation. I have had mornings where it doesn't give hot water for awhile (possible deadband issue) and other mornings where it is hot but doesn't have enough recovery for three people taking showers within an hour and half. The water heater is located in the garage in a corner - one side is open, next is an exterior wall, other between living area, and the other side is the chimney for the gas fireplaces and the water heater. The garage is moderately heated to keep it from freezing but not what you would call livable probably high 40s low 50s in the winter. The water heater is on the floor with a few small bricks underneath to support it. The water heater is a whirpool model BFG1F4034T3NOV. What reading I have done I beleive when replacing the water heater I need it be placed 18" off the floor but that might create problems with the current piping and exhaust. Would a low boy model be ok in this situation and do you lose anything by going to a lowboy? Last edited on Tue Dec 2nd, 2008 04:30 pm by Pilsner73 |
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| Posted: Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 12:54 am |
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2nd Post |
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elenano GCF-GL
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Your code may no longer require the 18-inch rule since all new heaters have FVIR devices. Check with the inspectors and see. Randy Schuyler
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| Posted: Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 03:03 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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I was wondering about that. I'm calling plumbers and having trouble figuring it out. I'll try to see if I can find out who to call about that code.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 08:09 pm |
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4th Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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I called the township office and they gave me a number to an outside code agency but nobody called me back yet. Supposedly they follow the ICC codes, anyone know what they might be for a fvir water heater and a garage. Here's the site they refer to http://www.iccsafe.org/
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12th, 2008 03:11 pm |
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5th Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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I checked and the local code enforcer said it needs to be 18" off the floor. This creates a problem since the chimney flue would actually be to low for this probably even with a low boy. Suggestions have been move the water heater, go direct/power vent, and even state that after install I will build a closet around it. Of course whoever installed the current water heater and it looks professionally installed totaly ignored code. Any suggestions or advice on this? I called several plumbers, one came out they all seem to want to sell either the BW or AO Smith 6 year 1" insulated standard water heaters. One person told me the price on their 10 year 2" model would run over a grand without installation. Are these correct or is their a problem?
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12th, 2008 04:02 pm |
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6th Post |
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elenano GCF-GL
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Apparently the FVIR heaters still need to be off the ground to ensure good ventilation. That came up in a succeeding post. As to a heater with more insulation, I think you should keep looking around. There should only be a relatively modest difference between a tank with 1-inch insulation and some with 2 or higher. I don't believe the "over a grand." It sounds as if someone is trying to sell you what they want instead of what you want. Maybe they have some they're trying to get rid of. My reaction to someone like that would be, "Are you paying me or am I paying you?" If the heater is next to a wall, direct-vent is a possibility. Power-vents, however, are expensive, noisy and finicky. We've had a number of posts from people who had problems with them. Randy Schuyler
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12th, 2008 04:21 pm |
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7th Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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It is next to a wall so maybe direct vent but I just replaced my furnace with a new high efficency model and had a chimney liner installed for the water tank venting I would probably just wait awhile but the current whirlpool 40 gallon just can't keep up with our demands.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12th, 2008 07:19 pm |
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8th Post |
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elenano GCF-GL
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Tell us more about this heater. Do you know how old it is? Btu input? It might still be possible to do something with it. Randy Schuyler Last edited on Fri Dec 12th, 2008 07:21 pm by elenano |
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12th, 2008 07:46 pm |
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9th Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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It's a Whirlpool 40 gallon NG 6 year water heater from either 2003 or 2005 (previous homeowner install). Issues include water not being hot in the morning or anytime it's not used (possible deadband), running out of hot water in the mornings.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15th, 2008 05:06 pm |
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10th Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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Ok I went up to Sears and checked out their power miser 12, seems like a nice tank but can't figure out what material the dual anode rods use. Anyone know? Also have someone who can install a Bradford White 40 gallon 6 year. I'm guessing this is the basic model.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15th, 2008 05:43 pm |
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11th Post |
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elenano GCF-GL
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If it has two anodes, find the one that has a hex nut. If it is smooth, the anodes are aluminum. If it has any kind of bump at all, their magnesium. Your current tank definitely has a deadband problem. As to capacity, consider Btu input as well as gallonage. You probably want more Btu input in the new heater than in the old. There are a couple of sections elsewhere on the site, reachable from The Basics link on making choices. Randy Schuyler
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15th, 2008 06:45 pm |
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12th Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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Currently I have a 3-5 year old (guessing) Whirlpool mode http://www.whirlpoolwaterheater.com/products/gas/details.php?recordID=1277 water heater. When I first tried to light this water heater it wouldn't light, I started messing with it and must of bumped something enough and since then it lights. Current issues are both running out of hot water quickly, and water is warm when it should be hot. House consists of 3 people, - Typical weekday morning goes like this: person A takes a shower between 6:30 and 7am, usually a 5-10 minute shower, person B takes a shower around 7:20-30am 10-20 minutes, person C takes one 8-8:10am usually 5-10 minutes. Somedays I (person C) get in and the hot water is just warm or runs out quick. Come home and the water is somewhat hot but not as hot as it should be. Today was the first time in awhile the hot water was HOT. I agree this water heater obvious has the deadband issue and possible not enough btu to keep up. I am debating between a 40 and 50 gallon tank. Everything I read say's a 40 gallon tank with 70fhr should handle our needs and a 50 would probably be overkill. I currently have 1 full bath,and 2 half baths though plan on adding a second shower to one of the 1/2 baths in the future. Dishwasher and Washing machine (Front Loader). I like this tank http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_04233147000P?vName=Appliances&cName=Water+Heaters&sName=Natural+Gas and when at the store I believe the hex nut on the top of tank had a round bump (see attachment for a drawing). I also have been told about this tank by a plumber http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products2.asp?id=1&product_id=1 Any comments or suggestions? Attachment: hex.JPG (Downloaded 84 times)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15th, 2008 10:54 pm |
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13th Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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I just discovered a lot of people complaing about their Kenmore (state/aosmith) water heaters clogging up and this causing the ignitor to not function anymore. Is this still an issue? Last edited on Mon Dec 15th, 2008 11:02 pm by Pilsner73 |
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16th, 2008 02:27 am |
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14th Post |
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elenano GCF-GL
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I think it's probably always an issue, and may also be with Bradford White. Thank the federal government for that one. It mandated flammable vapor ignition retardation systems in all water heaters in 2002. Rheem's solution involves a glass vial that breaks when FVIR is triggered. But the tank must be replaced. On the plus side, dust does not clog up the water heater. Everybody else (at least, I think) uses a metal strip that melts but can be replaced. But they are all prone to being clogged by dust buildup in the filter. That's why you saw all those complaints. But you'd find an equal number regarding Rheem's setup. Damned with one, damned with the other and always damned government. As to heater choice, the manufacturers have sizing programs. If I remember right, we liked Bradford White's the best. Get one of those and see what it says about your situation. They usually offer several options. Randy Schuyler Last edited on Tue Dec 16th, 2008 02:28 am by elenano |
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16th, 2008 01:43 pm |
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15th Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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elenano wrote: I think it's probably always an issue, and may also be with Bradford White. Thank the federal government for that one. It mandated flammable vapor ignition retardation systems in all water heaters in 2002. Thanks for the advice, Checking the Bradford White site I just read and it seems the bradford white still uses the combo hot water rod instead of the hex head or has this changed?
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16th, 2008 04:20 pm |
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16th Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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Here is a site I stumbled across that compares the major water heater types and the respective FVIR implementation they each used: http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/products/ This page really goes off on AO smith and Whirlpool's design http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/galleryi/ Doing some more checking about these claims I discovered cleaning instructions on AO smiths website for the FVIR which at least they admit to periodic cleaning. Not being a plumber or engineer my opinion so far is this guy raises some interesting points but how valid are they?
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16th, 2008 04:49 pm |
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17th Post |
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elenano GCF-GL
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Thank you. That was quite entertaining. I'm always looking for ways to improve my website. I think maybe it's time I did some research on this. Bradford White generally has a good reputation, but you can only get their tanks through a plumber. Different makers at different times try different ploys for marketing. About 10 years ago, somebody else -- I forget who -- had the Home Depot concession, which amounts to a huge number of sales per year. Rheem's ploy at the time was to promote buying water heaters through plumbers and strongly supporting plumbers. The minute Rheem got the Home Depot concession, where it sells the GE brand, it promptly forgot the joys of buying only through a plumber. I'd like to look into how BW's setup is different from the others. Ej, another contributor to this site, has offered detailed explanations on cleaning the filters. It's not that hard; you just need to be aware it needs to be done, and that's asking a lot of most water heater owners. A lot of them also wouldn't understand about Rheem's glass vial. It's too bad they can't do a better job of helping their customers. Randy Schuyler
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17th, 2008 12:57 am |
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18th Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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It seems the big box stores sell the most water heaters therefore you come across more complaints for their brands than other water heaters but it does seem there are issues with the fvir design. I read messages from a lot of people when they buy a Whirlpool and it fails due to a replaceable part; it drives owners crazy that plumbers don't have this part on hand and have to go to lowes and then too many times they have to have lowes order it in. I also read complaints about sears service providers. My issues with my Whirlpool are inconsistent heat, deadband, not enough first hour recovery to keep up but when I first lit it I had issues. As you said not many people want to clean their water heater for airflow reasons in fact I bet a lot of them don't even know they are supposed to. I think it would be good reading to add more on FVIR and reliability when choosing a tank type water heater. Today I decided to go with a Bradford White water heater 40 gallon, 6 year warranty, 1" insulation, 40k btu. I'll post more after it's installed.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19th, 2008 02:32 pm |
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19th Post |
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Pilsner73 Member
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I went with the Bradford White Model M-I-40T6FBN I believe though I can double check later the model number. It was installed yesterday afternoon and so far it's been a winner, when hot water is called for, hot water comes and this morning hot water was available first thing and it lasts for awhile. Things I like about the tank are it's maintenance free design, brass drain valve, feels well made, and if it need service most plumbers can get parts. The whirpool that was in previously (maybe it had some internal problems) we could never be sure if hot water would be available and how long it would last. Time will tell about this new tank but like I said so far it's a world of difference. Now this tank only has 1" insulation compared to the kenmore's 2" but when I went to the EF page for it http://www.bradfordwhite.com/energyfactor_natural.asp I noticed that there was some savings but not a lot, I tried calling around and found a plumber who could get the 2" inch Bradford White model but some of them seemed to think it would run a lot more money (true or not I have no idea). I have an insulation blanket but I have heard they don't really help all that much, any opinions? Another thing I do wish Bradford White put a hex head anode in, instead of the hot combo port design.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19th, 2008 05:09 pm |
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20th Post |
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elenano GCF-GL
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We don't think the blankets are that great. They do help a little, but they're dusty and sometimes cover up parts of the heater we think you should be able to see. Bradford White does make one model with a hex anode, a departure from the past where all its residential tanks came with combo anodes. When you go to check the anode in about five years, you'll have to have a new one on hand regardless of what you find because the short nipple of the BW rod ensures you'll damage the threads taking it out. Do mark prominently date of installation on the side with a marker as a reminder to check the anode later. Randy Schuyler
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