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| Monel relic as a Tempering Tank? | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29th, 2010 06:09 pm |
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1st Post |
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Jeeter Member
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38 years ago, I bought a house with a dirt cellar containing a dirty old 20-gallon Rudd Copper-Nickel SuperSpeed gas water heater lying on its side. The serial number, X0861-01633, may indicate it was made in 1963. Before tossing it out, I tried hooking it up. And, with two exceptions, I’ve ignored it ever since while it has worked flawlessly and proved entirely adequate. Once, in the early 80s, I had a foot or two of water in the cellar and had to relight the pilot afterward. Last March we had six feet of water in the cellar and now I can’t get the pilot light to light. It was a “good for nothing” water heater and may yet be good for something. Should I give any thought to rebuilding this water heater with replacement parts? The burner is very rusty. If not, perhaps I can strip off the shell and make a tempering tank. Do tempering tanks need pressure relief valves? I there anything else I should know about tempering tanks? Like where to put one. If I leave it in the cellar it won’t warm up much and might freeze. Outside in the sun would be nice, at least in warm weather, but distant from a new water heater. The attic is nice and hot, but I’ve read that firemen don’t much like that idea. I’m also considering installing both the tempering tank and a new water heater in a closet off my kitchen to help keep both them and the kitchen warmer in the winter. I can reinforce the floor and vent into a nearby chimney. The dirt cellar might not be the best place for a new heater with a FVIR screen. I welcome any thoughts anyone may care to contribute.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 2nd, 2010 04:47 am |
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2nd Post |
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elenano Member 
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I don't think you need to take the jacket off and I don't think it needs a T&P valve, but I'm not sure about the rest. My saying that much will pull this to the top of the subject list. I hope my friend Larry Weingarten will notice it and add his comments. Randy Schuyler
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| Posted: Fri Jul 2nd, 2010 08:22 am |
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3rd Post |
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eleent Member
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Hello: I like the idea of using an old monel heater as a tempering tank. It has an external flue, which exposes the entire outside of the tank to air, so you don't need to remove the jacket. Relief valves are needed for a tank that has a heat source. I don't imagine a tempering tank needs one. I like the attic as a place for a tempering tank if it's on a drain pan. Yours, Larry
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| Posted: Sat Jul 3rd, 2010 08:49 pm |
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4th Post |
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Jeeter Member
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Randy and Larry, Thank you for responding. What a comfort it is to have you as advisers. As Larry recommended, I am going to put the tempering tank in the attic with a drain pan that will also collect dripping condensation. I jumped the gun and removed the shell before reading your replies. The main benefit for me is that the tank is now shorter, lighter and easier to install in the attic. I'm unsure whether the missing insulation will make any net difference. I tried the tank out in the backyard yesterday and enjoyed a slightly warm shower after it had spent a day in the sun. The top and bottom of the tank are both concave and made of iron. The cylindrical wall is copper-nickle, and I imagine the inner surfaces of the ends are coated with copper-nickle. When I emptied the tank, there were no signs of rust and essentially no sediment. But there was a thin inky black deposit coating the bottom, something that must have accumulated over the past half century. Any idea what the deposit is or how best to get rid of it? I'm thinking of emptying the tank then pouring in a gallon of vinegar with plenty of salt. That combination works well on old pennies and also on the exterior of the tank. Should I think about installing a long curved inlet tube so I don't have to deal with this problem again 50 years from now? But maybe that's not an option since the inlet port is on the side of the tank, as are all the ports. Thanks, John Last edited on Sat Jul 3rd, 2010 09:15 pm by Jeeter |
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| Posted: Sun Jul 4th, 2010 06:25 am |
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5th Post |
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eleent Member
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Hello: For what it's worth, I remember coffee pots sometimes get cleaned by pouring in some salt and ice cubes. Shake well! That might be harder to do with a water heater, but something other than just chemical cleaning might speed things up and add to effectiveness. (Power wash?) The inki-ness, whatever it is (possibly steel), would be good to get rid of just so it doesn't color the water. I can only guess about it since it would be sacrilegious to cut one open; but I'll agree with you and guess the ends of the tank are monel like the sides of the tank, but have a formed steel "head" on the dry side to add to strength. I've seen the rusty ends, but they would rust through quickly if that's all that was there. I wouldn't bother with attempting to put in a dip tube unless there is really a port to put it in. Only other consideration is freezing in the winter. Does your attic get cold? Frozen pipes in the attic can ruin your whole day  Yours, Larry ps. As you've tested your tank as a solar collector, do you have a sunny spot indoors where you could put the nicely flat black painted tank? It could go solar full time! Last edited on Sun Jul 4th, 2010 06:30 am by eleent |
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20th, 2010 06:49 pm |
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6th Post |
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Jeeter Member
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Warm and Cold Running Water -- An Update: Our 49 year old water heater has become our new water warmer. I installed the inner Monel tank on a pedestal in the attic after cleaning the inside with vinegar, salt, ice cubes and lots of running water. It's plumbed into the hot water line in such a way that I can bypass and drain it in the winter if need be. But as I recall our attic gets fairly warm even in the winter. For here and now (RI in July), the arrangement is delightful. We have no water heater at present but can enjoy pleasantly warm outdoor showers every afternoon, and the water is a nice temperature for washing dishes that aren't too greasy. We've stopped heating water so hot that it has to be mixed with cold to remove costly calories. Eventually we'll install a water heater and feed the warm water into it, but I'm thinking it would still be nice to be able to tap the warm water without taking water from the heater. If in the future our sink had a warm water faucet, it would get a lot of use. John
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20th, 2010 10:26 pm |
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7th Post |
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eleent Member
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Hello: Should you ever feel the need to install a conventional heater again, you might want to put in a three valve bypass, or possibly a water softener valve. This will allow you to bypass in it summer. One problem comes to me that an unused heater with an anode will wind up getting smelly. You could just turn it to pilot. Understand also that the Legionnaires bacteria LOVES water temps under 130 degrees, so you'll just have to take long showers to insure sufficient throughput to prevent any bacteria from building up  Yours, Larry ps. After all that, congrats on devising an elegant hot water system!
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20th, 2010 11:55 pm |
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8th Post |
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Jeeter Member
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I don't know anything more about water softener valves than what I just learned from Googling them. Seems they are metered and expensive. I'm assuming they are designed to bypass the softener after some period of time. Would that be in weeks or months perhaps? I used three valves in the cellar to set up a bypass for the tempering tank, and it's occurred to me that I should look into getting a three-way valve when I get ready to set up a bypass for the new water heater. That way I'd only have to turn one handle instead of three. Perhaps it could be a solenoid valve that I can operate remotely. I have no idea whether any of this is practical or affordable. Thanks for the warning not to let the water heater stand idle too long. John
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 03:06 am |
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9th Post |
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Ej Member 
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Jeeter wrote:The serial number, X0861-01633, may indicate it was made in 1963. Looks to have been made August of 61. A garden planter would be safer. 
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 09:29 am |
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10th Post |
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eleent Member
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But, but what fun is a garden planter when this constitutes high science? It IS up in the attic Here is a schematic of a softener bypass or four port valve: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-way_valve There used to be one called the Hiller Valve I liked, but it was taken over by Tomlinson Industries and I don't know its fate. It needn't be an expensive thing. Yours, Larry
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 02:24 pm |
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11th Post |
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Jeeter Member
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A quick and easy water heater bypass valve -- that would be one way to get the message across when guests overstay their welcome. It took a while to puzzle out how I'd use 4-ports to make my water heater optional. Based on the Wiki schematics, I could input tempered water from the north and route it directly east to my "hot" water line (bypassing and isolating the water heater). Or I could route the tempered water west to the water heater then retrieve it from the south. I think I could also get by with a 3-way valve, eliminating both the southern port and the southern valve channel. But then I'd need a tee to the east to feed water from the heater into the hot water line. For anyone who might be interested, here are some 3-way schematics: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/3-way.svg/2000px-3-way.svg.png This is just enough challenge to be fun. Keeping anything alive in a planter would be more than I can handle. -- John
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 05:48 pm |
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12th Post |
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eleent Member
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Hello: You can stop flow through a tank with a three-way valve, but I'm not sure you can remove pressure from the tank. I'd want to be able to do both so servicing is easy. Two three-way valves will do it, but it's always good to keep the plumbing from looking like it belongs in the engine room of a submarine Simple is simply harder than complex. The four port valve hookup basically would attach between hot and cold lines into and out of the heater. In one position, you have normal operation. In the other position, cold flows straight across to feed the house and both heater lines are disconnected from service. Clear as mud? Yours, Larry ... (practiced in the art of opaque thinking)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 06:08 pm |
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13th Post |
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Jeeter Member
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Yes, that is clear and helpful. Thank you. Simple is harder -- is that like Mark Twain saying he would have written a shorter letter but didn't have time? Sometimes I don't have time or energy to pack light for a trip. -- John
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