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TMS
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Posted: Mon Dec 25th, 2006 07:49 pm |
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I would like to invite the owners of this site as well as any of the members to visit my office and training facility in southern California. Some of the information you have listed on your brief section on tankless is very inaccurate. I would encourage you to dig a little deeper so you can provide interested members with more factual information on the topic.
There are many types and brands of tankless water heaters; some far better than others. There are strong differences in the technology that separate the leaders in the category from the weak. As with all things in life, there are pros and cons that must be considered. I believe, and our growth supports this theory, that the benefits outweigh the limitations. This holds particularly true when applied in commercial applications where one is paying to heat stored water over and over. Apartment buildings, schools, prisons, nursing homes, restaurants....all can capture incredible gains from the proper use of tankless water heaters. Tankless water heaters offer energy savings. This is a plain and simple fact. There are many residential home situations that limit the ability to use tankless water heaters. As a company, we work very hard to make sure consumers have the facts needed to determine if they can work with our product.
I am most happy to provide you with any information you might desire. I can share application designs from installed projects where people are experiencing the benefits. I can explain how the technology really works so that it will be possible for you to clearly understand why there is less energy needed to heat the water. I can provide you with the truth about flow rates from tankless water heaters and how this applies to the use of water in a home or business.
I can also give you a more accurate account of why tank water heaters become less and less efficient for every day they are in operation. That lovely crud that sits on the bottom of the tank consumes energy that should be used to heat the water. With every day that water heater becomes less and less efficient. Residential or commercial, few really maintain those tanks. It is just too cumbersome. I am working with a large REIT that owns over 25,000 apartments. They do not have their commercial water heaters maintained. They replace them at failure point to the tune of $4200 to $6500. This is a fact.
Very little has changed since the invention of traditional tank water heaters. You can keep the blinders on and float through life living in the past, or you can open your mind to the possibility that maybe it is time for change.
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elenano
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Posted: Mon Dec 25th, 2006 09:22 pm |
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I'm going to leave my colleague Larry Weingarten to address the ins and outs of residential tankless, since he has more direct experience with them. For my part, I've seen a few things in apartment complexes -- a LOT of apartment complexes.
First, tankless heaters are not futuristic. Many technologies used in automobiles today were actually invented about a hundred years ago by the pioneers of the field. Same with tankless.
If you look in the Weingarten Collection, you'll find bath heaters that are, in fact, tankless heaters. In the same era, faucet electric instantaneous heaters were invented and sold. They attached to a sink faucet and heated water flowing through them. If they were really the superior solution for everything, by now they'd dominate the market.
In apartment complexes, one finds either commercial water heaters or boilers -- powerful tankless heaters. The truth is, though, that I found many times more water heaters than boilers during numerous inspections and service calls.
Boilers can be more efficient. They usually have a storage tank and only one component has to be replaced when it fails, as opposed to a water heater where tank and burner are integral. Boilers last several time longer than water heaters.
On the downside, they COST several times more, too. They serve a whole complex, usually, and when they fail, EVERYBODY in that complex is without hot water until they're replaced, as opposed to everybody in one building with a commercial water heater. And properly serviced, as we advocate here, techniques that are not as widely known as we'd like, commercial water heaters never do break and nobody ever goes without hot water.
Commercial water heaters are easy to maintain if they are installed correctly. We've serviced side-plumbed State Sandblasters with the right recirc valving in one hour, using Larry Weingarten's anode extractor and Muck Vac water heater vacuum.
But boilers require maintenance, too. The same "crud," as you call it that falls into the bottoms of water heaters also "limes up" heat exchangers and if those aren't delimed periodically, they fail, with considerable replacement cost. That same crud, even in quantity, only lowers the energy efficiency of a water heater by five percent and it can be vacuumed or flushed out, as opposed to deliming a heat exchanger with chemicals.
Boiler systems are considerably more complex devices than water heaters and there are more things for an ignorant handyman or service tech to screw up. If REITs don't want to bother with tank service, what are the odds they'll do boiler service right?
These incredible energy savings: where do they come from? There is no magic way to get more Btu out of a tankless than a water heater. The laws of physics remain the same for both. A well-insulated tank heater doesn't lose much heat. The real kicker for everybody is the plumbing. If you could put a tankless heater right next to each faucet, you'd gain an advantage, but if it has to flow through plumbing for any distance, then it's losing just as much heat as a tank-type heater.
People with commercial buildings have to weigh all these factors and for them, the bottom line really is the bottom line. So far, they've voted with their dollars for tank-type water heaters.
Homeowners are more likely to be swayed by something that sounds good. For them, I suggest they merely compare equipment prices and try to figure out energy price savings. A $220 tank heater can do two things at once: two showers, shower and washer, shower and dishwasher. I just looked up Takagi and a tankless that will do that costs $989 and may require a bigger gas or electrical line. I merely ask those homeowners: how many years -- or decades -- will go by before you've recouped the extra $769?
Randy Schuyler
Last edited on Wed Dec 27th, 2006 03:24 am by
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TMS
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Posted: Tue Dec 26th, 2006 12:49 am |
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Please do not misconstrue my passion for my product as disrespect to you and those people who are not completely up to speed on the product. It is my job to educate and help people understand what we can provide. I read information daily that is both inaccurate and deceiving. I was offering you the opportunity to learn more; something I strive to do on a daily basis.
I don't recall saying anything about tankless water heating being a new technology. On the contrary, it is used all over the world. The original tankless type water heaters you refer to are not similar to the products that now exist and are embraced in much of the world. You will not find tank water heating in many places in the world. Space and energy is too valuable. Our company has been successfully providing tankless solutions for just short of 50 years. You will find hotels, apartments, schools, restaurants, car washes and individual homes using the products here in the United States and in the world.
We American's are not always on the cutting edge of technology. We are often slow to embrace new ways of doing things. We also waste far more than most other cultures that have a stronger value for natural resources. We are afraid of running out. That's why we store hot water and heat it over and over, often times when there is no inkling of demand. We have bigger showers, tubs, washing machines and dishwashers than most of the world. We are rarely willing to adjust our behavior to make improvements. Now that we are feeling a pinch on our wallets, we are starting to look at alternatives.
The tankless water heating market is growing by 40-50% per year (according to GAMA) in the US, outpacing the growth of tank water heating significantly. It has gone from nearly immeasurable to 4% of the overall water heating market in the past few years and will move into an even more significant percentage of the overall market within the next few years given that growth . The Department of Energy recognizes the efficiency of the product and is providing consumer tax credits for those who want to use the technology. Title 24 in California gives significant credits for the use of tankless water heaters. Utility companies throughout the country offer incentives to consumers, builders and property owners for using the product; both in new and retro applications as well as commercial. These rebates range from $200 to $1000 dollars per water heater. LEED offers credit for the use of tankless water heating as does most every green building program in the country. There is a reason for all of this. Americans cannot afford to heat stored water anymore. Energy is limited and even small savings have a long-term impact. Our web site and consumer line struggle to keep up with the volume of inquiries. We receive many calls from architects, mechanical engineers and builders that are trying to effectively incorporate the technology in projects. We offer application support and guidance at no charge to anyone wishing to consider our product.
Our tankless water heaters are installed in many apartment buildings in the United States. They are being specified in new projects and are replacing both boilers and commercial water heaters in existing complexes. Tankless water heaters can be banked to provide the required flow for a commercial application. They can operate alone or be combined with manageable amounts of storage to reduce the quantity of units needed.
They often require much less space than the commercial water heater or boiler alternative. They weigh little and can be placed on a roof, without consideration being needed for weight. They offer a redundancy factor. If one tankless unit needs repair, the others will still function and provide hot water. They are less expensive than both boilers and commercial water heating equipment in many application cases.
Every component of our product is easily replaceable using no expensive tools or equipment; the most expensive part being the heat exchanger which is approximately $300 and requires a phillips head screw driver to install. Our unit senses lime build up and alerts when it needs to be flushed by flashing a lime condition code. This incidentally is a simple procedure using household vinegar, a small pump and a bucket. The case that houses the components has a twenty year or better life span.
Our water heaters produce hot water at the temperature the owner desires within +/- 2 degrees. The unit only uses the BTU's necessary to heat the demand called for. Starting at 15k BTU’s, the modulating gas burner can increase in 1 BTU increments meaning it only uses enough gas to heat what is required. We meet lo nox requirements now and already have products compliant with the next round of regulations.
You are absolutely right about the cost barrier for individual homeowners. If they do not have a minimum 3/4" gas line, they cannot use our product. Sometimes the cost of increasing the line size does not make good sense. But you are missing a huge component of the motivation behind why people do want the product. Running out of hot water on a regular basis is. JD Powers Home Buyer Surveys consistently rank running out of hot water in the Top 5 complaints.
One tankless water heater can provide over 6 gallons per minute in California ground water conditions. That does not take into account the cold water people mix in to buffer the temperature if they so choose. That being said two people can take showers and dishes can be washed with no temperature change. Additionally, two more people can get in the shower immediately afterward and laundry can still be run with plenty of hot water to do so. If you wanted, you could set the temperature of the tankless water heater at the control pad in your bathroom to exactly the temperature you like in the bath or shower and only use the hot water faucet instead of heating water to 120 or higher only to mix in cold to get to that same temperature. Most people don't even get that part of the benefit. In this case, two people could still take showers at the same time with no problems, as could 2 more after and so on.
That $220 tank you refer to would start to loose heat as soon as one shower turns on. Cold water starts to flow into that tank immediately and the overall temperature starts to reduce. Start the second shower and that increases even more and it doesn't take long before that water in the shower is getting cooler. It also mandates waiting before the next two people can shower. Given the regulations that tank manufacturers are scrambling to comply with, you are hard pressed to find cheap tanks now and that will get even more prevalent in 2007. Our UPS driver called 5 contractors that we recommended when his tank failed in his condo last month. He asked if he could install our product but we knew it would not be feasible. He was quoted anywhere from $600 - $900 for having his tank replaced with another tank by these companies. Yes that is less than a tankless model, but it comes along with the same set of problems.
Homebuilders are installing tankless water heaters in their new homes because of the Title 24 impact, the space savings and consumer desire to be more energy efficient.
I am not saying that boilers and commercial water heaters are bad, nor am I saying that tankless water heating is suited for every application. What I am saying is that there is a lot of really good information available on when and how it makes sense and it would be nice if your site presented some of that information as well.
I just happened to be searching for information for a large project I am working on and stumbled upon your site. When I read the limited information you had about tankless, I thought perhaps you would like the opportunity to provide some information on all of the successful applications and situations that exist. We offer a lot of good information, training classes and product support. We would be pleased to welcome you. You might just discover something you didn't know.
Last but not least...Rheem, A.O. Smith Bradford White and others are all offering tankless water heaters, many of which are manufactured by another company. They have sizing applications for residential and commercial projects. This speaks volumes to how the future of this product is perceived. The demand is there and growing quickly. Tankless is the future of water heating.
Last edited on Tue Dec 26th, 2006 08:43 am by
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eleent
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Posted: Tue Dec 26th, 2006 08:20 pm |
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Hello: TMS, you are well spoken and you raise many valid points. I won't attempt to address them all, but simply give a different perspective. I've been doing plumbing over 35 years and exclusively hot water for just over twenty. Tankless heaters have been around the whole time. Tankless manufacturers though have come and gone, enough to leave lots of people stuck holding broken heaters with no recourse. There is no predicting the future, but I hope the manufacturers make more of a commitment this time around to real customer service. Tankless heaters historically have been oversold; much like magnetic water softening. I see only a little restraint now in the market. We don't even have an accurate way to compare heaters. Energy Factor has drawbacks and even something as simple as gallons per minute of hot water is played with, as the old convention of a 90 degree temperature rise is not being followed by the tankless manufacturers. Some claim twice as many gallons delivered with only half the temperature rise. "Facts" like that are not in the interest of the end users. Life cycle cost has not been mentioned yet, but is an important tool for getting some clarity on what is really a good deal. "Endless hot water" is one of the main selling points of tankless, but have you heard of "takeback"? That (to use an example) is when the teenager of the house that now has a tankless heater takes hours-long showers because he can. Conservation is not on his mind. Simply, an endless supply encourages waste.
I agree that conventional, gas, tank-type heaters are inefficient. There are new heaters in the design stages now that greatly reduce standby losses. These heaters will have many of the same benefits as conventional tank type heaters and efficiency, without the learning-to-live-with and greater upkeep that have been part of going tankless.
Much of this conversation simply would not be necessary if people were aware of the things that can be done with their hot water distribution systems to reduce waste and increase comfort. The GFX shower heat exchanger comes to mind. It can capture and reuse 60% of the heat that goes down the drain. Essentially it means you could get the same shower from a 20 gallon heater as you now get from a forty. Or, "structured plumbing". This can take various forms, but can realistically be designed to deliver hot water to any faucet, wasting only one to two cups of water. That gives savings both in terms of heating energy and water. There is a lot of energy spent in treating and pumping water and waste water. That energy is saved too. If the energy demand is halved, simpler heaters make more sense.
I've been in the unique position for many years to learn what goes wrong with all sorts of water heating equipment. I only raise concerns about maintenance or longevity or whatever because I've personally seen the problem cause trouble for someone. Every "inaccuracy" in the section on tankless comes from real world experience. I usually don't need to do "what-iffs".
The best equipment for getting people the hot water they want will be safe, efficient, cost effective, long lived and be not just very easy to live with, but a pleasure. However tankless heaters can fit into the mix of good equipment and good design that will meet these needs will be determined by how interested the tankless folks are in serving the needs of their clients.
Yours, Larry
ps. I'm in Northern California, but would like to visit your facility sometime.
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energyexpert
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Posted: Tue Dec 26th, 2006 10:08 pm |
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Larry,
Yours is a good commentary.
I have often thought about the endless hot water as being an invitation to use more. I am reading a book which says that we have wasted our energy efficiency gains over the last two decades by using more of the high efficency stuff. E.g., houses are more efficient but a lot bigger.
So far as water heating, I chose a 105 gallon Marathon to replace an existing gas water heater. EF numbers will vary, but I figure I can buy a therm of gas for $1.38 in Asheville, NC (summer price) and get less than 90,000 BTUs in the water (10,000 flue loss) or buy 26.4 kWh (90,000 BTUs) of off-peak Progress Energy electricity for $1.19 (rate RTOUD). I personnaly think that a sound energy policy would require that all residential electric water heating be done off-peak only. If you are going to have a water heater anyway, why not just get one large enough to carry you through the day? Since at least 5% of electricity generated goes to residential water heating, off-peak water heating would free up a lot of on-peak generating capacity. With 105 gallons, I don't worry about running out of hot water, but I know there is not an endless supply.
Tankless gas is one thing but tankless electric is greatly discouraged by electric utilities. Go to http://www.progress-energy.com and type "tankless water heaters" in the search block on the home page. This all but says don't buy a tankless electric water heater. Also, an electric tankless of 28 kW will deliver only just over 3 gpm of 60 F rise (i.e., one shower).
Other considerations are the "big picture." How much CO2 is released from a given method of heating water? Coal is mostly all carbon. And the typical coal plant has a thermal efficiency of only 40%. Propane is C3H8 and natural gas (methane) is CH4. Water heated with electricity during peak hours will probably have a gas or oil component to the electricity; water heated electrically at night will be made from coal and/or nuclear sources.
Depending on how green one is will determine the factors and outcome of energy related decisions. Since cost drives decisions for most of us, I strongly suggest electric water heating off-peak only with a very large water heater.
David
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TMS
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Posted: Tue Dec 26th, 2006 10:26 pm |
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Larry, thank you for the kind words and for the information on GFX. I spent some time reading from their website. I just forwarded the link to our head of engineering to ask him about it as well. I really like to know what is available in the market. It helps me position our products where it makes sense. I will give you a brief background on the company to begin addressing some of your points.
We have been in business since 1928 and are one of the world’s largest gas appliance manufacturers. We are a vertically integrated manufacturer so we have complete control of the components used to make our products. We make hundreds of products ranging from dishwashers to shower misters and plasma dryers. We are ISO 9001 and 14001 which is the environmental standard equivalent of 9001. Our company is extremely quality minded which is evident to anyone touring our manufacturing facilities.
We originally came to the US with our zone and whole home heating products. We began selling a limited offering of our tankless product about 7 years ago. We recently introduced a direct vent gas fireplace that is approaching .80 EF because it utilizes a modulating gas valve. You can have a fire with little heat because of it which is a major plus in many of the warmer climate zones.
I have only been with the company for a little more than one year. I came from a plumbing background; working for two of the biggest faucet manufacturers. When recruited for my position I was aware of tankless water heating but my knowledge was limited to what I had researched when wanting to put one in my home about 4 years ago. While going through the interview process, I did quite a bit of homework on the company. I liked what I learned and they evidently liked me and here I am today.
Our company has a significant brick and mortar investment in the United States and has no intentions of disappearing. We have a US Headquarters but we also have Regional Offices being opened in major markets. I am the manager for the California office which will be two years old in April of 2007... We recently opened a location in Florida and Texas is in the process of being set up now. There are another 3 locations in line after Texas. These are not tiny little satellite facilities. I have a training room that can accommodate as many as 80 people, local parts inventory, multiple conference rooms, a showroom and significant office space. We have technical support and application engineering in the office and we make ourselves available to guide contractors who are new to the product.
I am in total agreement about the poor information floating around and I can tell you we work very hard to provide facts to anyone interested in our product. We have a sizing program on our technical website that allows the user to enter ground water temperature, and various other variables (gas line, custom showers pertinent to determining which product is best as well as how many units are needed. There are tabs specific to what type of application you are looking at; apartments, hotel, tank replacement, etc...
There is also a comparison tool that lets you look at the differences between our product and various other tankless models on the market as well as a GE 40 Gallon tank water heater. This site is constantly updated with new and additional information. I did not want to mention any specific company names in case it is against the rules of this site but I would be happy to email it to you if you are interested.
We use sealed combustion and concentric venting so the combustion air is brought in from outside the home. This is a significant detail when comparing tankless technology. If a unit requires combustion air from the space in which it is located, the space needs to be large enough to provide enough fresh air or substantial vents need to be installed to allow more air into the space from outside. We have a temperature sensor on the outlet water side that controls the temperature within 2 degrees of what the temperature is set at on the control unit.
The control unit provides a history of error codes so a service person can diagnose the problem more efficiently. More than 90% of our problem calls involve improper installation. This is why we have a huge amount invested in training and education. We have been setting up Authorized Service Providers nationally to make warranty service calls. We are the only tankless company that offers one year of labor on warranty parts. We want people to have a good experience. It will only hurt us long term if we turn our backs on problems.
We are investing in getting good information to architects and mechanical engineers so that plumbing systems will be designed around the use of tankless instead of just slapping them in where the tank or boiler was supposed to go. Split systems in large homes with huge demand make a lot of sense so recirculation can be eliminated. Tankless water heaters can go outside of the home surface mount or recessed closest to where the water is most needed. Recirculation is horrible for copper pipes and unless done per our approved set-up, can reduce the warranty on the heat exchanger. This is true with all tankless manufacturers. We have an application drawing on our Hot Water Design Manual that shows the way to incorporate recirc without reducing the warranty. We are the only company that does offer that solution as well as the option of an "on demand" system.
I completely understand the "takeback" component and can only say that as with all things, there are upsides and downsides. If that same household had a 75 gallon tank with that teenager, chances are he would still take long showers but the parents would be the ones stuck with no hot water left. I guess good old fashioned rules need to be introduced back into homes. Perhaps a lot of other problems would be solved. My father would have given me the gas bill had I done that 
I would love to invite you down to attend a class as my guest. I would also be happy to share some information on some installed projects that are extremely successful. Schools are becoming a strong market for us. I just got off the phone with a plumber in Los Angeles that has a private school with an old boiler and a 500 gallon storage tank. The replacement equipment cost is $50k for the boiler and based on our calculations we can provide enough water for their demand for less $10k installed. We are installing product at a large, new high school campus in San Diego next month if all goes as planned. It is the sister to another similar school that has been open for just over a year. They are being killed by their gas bill because they are heating large quantities of stored water when no one is even at the school. We will be metering the gas at both locations so they have concrete facts on the savings. Stay tuned...we will share the results.
Thank you for the great info. I look forward to talking to you again.
My best wishes for a Happy New Year,
Ms. Taylor Shaw
Last edited on Wed Dec 27th, 2006 03:25 am by
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elenano
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Posted: Wed Dec 27th, 2006 06:55 am |
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Ms. Shaw,
Thank you for all your comments. You have said a great deal about your company without actually naming it. I invite you to do so now.
There really aren't any posted rules for using The Tank. It's possible you saw one post by someone who was using The Tank to advertise. That I don't take kindly to.
But you started a professional discussion about a topic likely to be of interest to many of the people who come here and that was one of our aims when we started The Tank. We don't have to all agree and indeed, it's a lot more interesting when we don't.
If you have a Web page elsewhere that bolsters your side of the argument, feel free to include a link here.
Randy Schuyler
Water Heater Rescue
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benrev9
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Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 02:24 am |
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I found this site while searching for anode rods and felt compelled to join in. I have been a licensed plumbing contractor for 28 years and purchased a gas fired tankless unit 17 years ago for my shop just to evaluate the pros and cons. The maintenance and repairs were troubling as was the performance. However, I have found the professional quality units available today are superior in every way as long as an educated buying decision is accompanied by proper installation.
Investing in tankless technology education is critical to any installer who expects the customer to continue to appreciate his/her expertise 3 years down the road.
I am frequently called upon to address a problem unit that is improperly sized or incorrectly installed. It is difficult to help the consumer understand you can only make a unit perform to its engineered standards!
In our midwest USA region fluctuating incoming water temperatures, water quality, and ongoing routine maintenance must be carefully considered before allowing a consumer to commit to tankless. However, with the correctly engineered installation it is not unusual to see operating savings from $20 - $30 per month for a household. Many people are simply thrilled they can finally use that big whirlpool tub the builder included.
It is an investment for long term savings no doubt. Yet the American consumer is more educated than ever before and seems to be anxious to catch up to the rest of the world with regards to heating water. Cudos to you for being willing to admit we need to look forward in the plumbing industry.
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Eric2007
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Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 05:43 pm |
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One of you mentioned interest in info on good electric tankless water heaters, I agree there is some real junk out there like the Bosch Powerstar AE115 which I recently replaced with a Stiebel Eltron Tempra 29 from Houseneeds.com. The Stiebel, through drawing a lot of juice is great!
More info can be found here: http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/HeatingProducts/WaterHeating/stiebeleltron/stiebeleltronmainpage.htm
This was a great read and if I ever need to go gas, I'll refer back here to see if TMS has told what company she runs...
Eric
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jasp1
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Posted: Sun Jul 6th, 2008 08:49 am |
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Don't know why TMS (Taylor Shaw) never indentified her company. After some google searching, I confirmed the company she was with at the time of the posting was Rinnai. As of this date, her profile on LinkedIn.com indicates she is still with Rinnai.
I need a new water heater soon, so I have been researching tanks and tankless systems. At least here in Colorado, Rinnai seems to be the best tankless choice. However, for my situation the tankless system, fully installed, is more than three times as expensive as having a professionally installed tank system (about $3300 vs about $900).
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elenano
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Posted: Sun Jul 6th, 2008 06:17 pm |
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About two months ago, I attended a one-day seminar on green plumbing taught by Gary Kline. Among other things, he did a tank vs. tankless comparison. It was a real eye-opener. When I went home, I about doubled the size of my "why we don't like tankless page" elsewhere on the site.
I would suggest anyone thinking they're going to save energy, and especially, save money, read that page first. Tankless are pricey, finicky, NOT instantaneous and troublesome and the makers will void the warranty at the drop of a hat.
The only application I know of where they are superior to tank heaters is if you have a Jacuzzi tub, since the capacity of those is beyond most tank heaters.
Randy Schuyler
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meebers
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 02:44 am |
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I had thought about replacing my gas HW tank with a tankless system promising energy savings etc. My analysis is as follows; In the months that we do not use our gas fireplace, the only natural gas consuming appliance is our HW heater. My monthly bill is typically $17 for actual gas, and $11 in taxes and fees, totaling +/- $28 per month. The gas bill indicates I used 8.46 therms for my 50 gal tank. Tankless would be about $2500 for my 3 bathroom house. If I were to save 50% on gas, i.e. $8.50 my pay back would be 20+ years. I just can't see doing that for my specific instance. Sorry to digress from an excellent technical discussion.
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Ej
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 03:43 am |
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I won't comment on the energy savings that so many have discussed in the above threads. Instead I will talk about maintenance and repair issues with tankless heaters. I have been repairing commercial tankless heaters for more than twenty years with major food industry players like Vanguard. I also do mfg warranty repairs for the majors in domestic heating.
First let me say that 99.8% of the current plumbers repairing domestic heaters will not touch tankless. Just too much electrical component's involved. Electricians will not touch them either. The few trained technicians out there that understand them do not cover the areas needed to support the products. So your heater breaks and now you will need to "WAIT" until a qualified tech can be found. One to two weeks is not uncommon.
Now lets start adding maintenance issues and we find ourselves paying for someone to descale the heat exchangers on a regular basis. Are you in a hard water area? Then you better buy the tools and pumps to properly descale the heat exchanger or your warranty will be voided.
Price the parts out before you buy. How much for a new heat exchanger, water diaphragm, or pc board? Most tank mfg will give you a new heater if it fails while under warranty, even if scale caused the failure. Tankless most likley will not.
I would be the first in line to buy a tankless if the mfg would guaranty me quick service, a 15 year no fault warranty, and a price that could be recouped in 5 years. Until then I'll just stick to fixing yours.....Wait for me. Last edited on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 03:53 am by Ej
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eleent
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 07:18 am |
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Ej, I thought I detected some plumber humor there  The next generation of water heaters will likely be combined tank/tankless, or a big burner and a small storage tank. Some units are already on the market, (Navien, Eternal) but hope is to do the same at a lower cost. This approach gives plenty of (not unlimited) hot water without the "cold sandwich" or other tankless party favors. The next round of heaters will likely be condensing as well. That translates to over 90% efficient.
Now if we could hook these nifty new heaters up to something other than the antiquated plumbing systems we continue to install, (Google: structured plumbing Gary Klein) life would be sweeter.
Yours, Larry
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Wind
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 03:20 pm |
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I hope if such a trend takes place they manage to produce some reliable, inexpensive products. Water heating alone offers virtually no room for efficiency payback. Heck, I even heat my home with mine and I can't make the math work moving to 90% from 70%.
Then again, if natural gas follows oil's latest fun.....
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srdenny
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 02:16 am |
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I was at Mr. Klein's seminar as well. I was impressed with the research that Don Fisher (Fisher/Nickel Inc) is doing at PG&E's Food Service Technology Center. Their technique is to go to restaurants in the San Ramon area and set up energy testing equipment on the water heating equipment. Once they get a baseline they then change out the water heater, trying among other things tankless heaters. BTW: Their findings do not suggest any great $ savings using tankless heaters.
I'm not negative on them. I just see them as a product that has limited applications.
For example, when a customer says they don't want to run out of hot water, ever, I suggest a tankless system that will give them at least as many gallons of hot water (winter ∆T) as all their hot water taps can possibly demand simultaneously. Overkill, yes! But, if they want and can afford it, why not?
As for the future, I agree with Larry. Condensing w/recirc and integral tank is how things seem to be heading. I just don't want to be a Navien beta tester.
Anyone had the pleasure of changing out a fuse on a tankless chip board. PITA! Had to get the fuses from Radio Shack.
Had a brand new Noritz that the factory authorized prima dona repair guy couldn't fix. He also got huffy when I showed my (and my customer's) frustration. Said he wouldn't come back. So I yanked the N132 off the wall, took it back to Ferguson, got another one and said don't bother to bill me, which they didn't. According to them, Noritz wouldn't honour the credit, so Ferguson ate it.
I think one suggestion I'd make to improve tankless reliability is to some how rig up a self cleaning feature on the cold water inlet screen.
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